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Welcome to the AJP podcast,
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a podcast for pharmacists by pharmacists where we discuss current events,
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relevant topics, and emerging issues. I'm your host, Carlene McMaugh,
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and together with the AJP I'm bringing you the opinions and expertise of
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different pharmacists to discuss their views and insights on topics relevant to
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pharmacists.
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Please like and rate each episode and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss
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an episode. I always start with you introducing yourself,
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if that's okay.
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Sure, yes. I'm Chris Brooker, the editor of AJP,
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the Australian Journal of Pharmacy, of which I've been the editor now for
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actually, yeah,
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longtime observer of the healthcare and especially pharmacy
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industry in which I've worked for probably 16 of the last 20 years.
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Thank you. Can you please describe from what you've seen this year,
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what have been some of the successes that have been seen in pharmacy across
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2024?
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I mean, I suppose look,
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the big story thinking of community pharmacy first is obviously
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the eighth agreement.
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Obviously when the year began,
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we were still in this sort of state of kind of cold war really was it a
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cold war or a warm war, I don't know,
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between the federal government and the Guild and
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community pharmacy owners in general where there was still uncertainty over
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where things were going in terms of remuneration,
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in terms of recompense for the effects of double dispensing.
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So I think obviously that was a huge deal and I think pharmacy,
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if you look at it with a degree of distance,
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I suppose did very well out of the eighth agreement.
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So I think that would have to be
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a top success for pharmacy as an industry.
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I suppose if you look at it as a business,
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I think they've done very well out of it and I think pretty much all the
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industry experts I've spoken to would have said the same.
This was a very good
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agreement that was much better than what many people were thinking.
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So I think the Guild,
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Mr. Tassone has done a great job with his negotiations and his team and
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I think Trent and co. should be really pleased with what they've got there.
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And I think all pharmacy owners particular should be thankful.
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And I suppose the other thing that you can say is the success is the continued
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expansion of scope of practice and the continued evidence that
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pharmacists in general can do what they're now being
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allowed to do. Obviously interestingly, I was,
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before we started talking,
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I was looking through a list we got a month or so ago of our top
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25 stories for the year in terms of readership.
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And the very top one further down the list than I thought it was the very top
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one was pharmacies claim over 227,000 through NIPVIP in
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January.
So obviously the NIPVIP program for
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vaccinations began at the beginning of the year and I mean that showed already
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the level of interest in pharmacy, but also the level of,
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well,
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the sheer number I suppose the vaccinations that pharmacists or pharmacies are
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now doing. I mean that was obviously that's been the banner,
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the flagship or whatever you want to call it, of expanded scope of practice.
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And I can still remember when that was kicking off and doctors groups saying
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there was going to be people collapsing outside pharmacies because they wouldn't
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be able to cope with it.
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And obviously it's been a huge success and I think that's opened the doors with
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governments and regulators to see what else pharmacy can do.
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And I think this year,
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2023 and 2024 probably as a flow on from the pandemic,
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we've seen that
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a whole range of different programs in different states and now kicking off
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in a whole range of different areas, UTIs,
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lots of other point of care testing and whatever that are all just sort of
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kicking off around the place to show pharmacy or to show people what pharmacy
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can actually do.
And I think pharmacists are doing those very well.
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So I think that would definitely have to be a huge tick,
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but I think they're probably the biggest successes really.
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I mean there's lots of other big stories,
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but whether they'd consider them a success,
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but I think they'd definitely be the top of my list.
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I think from an individual pharmacist perspective,
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the fact that you can now do so much more and so many more
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things are being tested and are on the way.
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Now there may be other issues that come from that of course,
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but I think you're looking at the fact that pharmacists are proving they
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can do these things safely and to patient benefit
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is a massive success.
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And then in the community sector that's been underpinned financially
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by a very good agreement. So I think that'd be the top two for me.
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Thank you. You've made reference to the top story,
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but I guess I'd ask what some of the top stories have been throughout 2024 and
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I guess you can link that to pharmacist questions or responses to the stories
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and changes to pharmacy.
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Okay, so well, what are the big threads through the year?
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I mean obviously looking from the start of the year, I suppose again,
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obviously the agreement and the lead up or the community pharmacy agreement and
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the lead up to it,
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obviously that's been an ongoing story until it was signed.
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That's definitely one.
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Obviously with that there's certainly been a lot of politicking
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within the Guild.
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Obviously there was a lot of pressure last year in particular from the CAPS
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group
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who were very vocal in what they thought should be happening.
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And obviously in New South Wales they managed to unseat
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a number of look quite long-term Guild state
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councilors, including obviously the president David Heffernan,
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which showed I suppose the volatility of the New South Wales pharmacy landscape,
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but also the level of feeling among members.
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I think in retrospect, David was doing a very good job,
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and it's probably a bit ironic that not long after
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the election results came in,
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the New South Wales government announced again
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a program of expanded scope of practice,
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which was a large part due to his negotiation. So interesting.
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But obviously that's been a volatile issue,
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which has now I suppose died off since the agreement.
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Another big issue that's been ongoing all year,
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of course is the merger between Chemist Warehouse Group and
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Sigma, which obviously has huge ramifications directly for a lot of pharmacies,
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of course, who are in Sigma owned banner groups,
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but also for the broader sector in general,
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given what a massive powerhouse that promises to be.
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I mean that certainly provoked a lot of comments from readers as you could
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imagine,
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some of which I probably couldn't recite and some of which we couldn't approve.
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But no, I mean there's certainly been a lot of debate around that,
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about what the significance of that will be to people who,
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I mean obviously the entities themselves have said there'll be
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no detrimental impacts. I mean that obviously remains to be seen.
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Who knows what will be the end result of it.
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But I mean it's certainly obviously a huge story for the future of the
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community sector.
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Well obviously again, scope of practice,
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I think that's obviously one thing that's very volatile because it does
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obviously, while on the one hand people are like, this is great,
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we can now practise what we learnt at university and what
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we think we are trained to do. On the other hand,
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of course that brings the issue,
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which a lot of our readers constantly point out of, well that's great,
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but what about our remuneration? What about our working conditions?
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Does that mean more work for the same pay or work that's more
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complicated and time consuming?
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How does that relate to the workflow in the pharmacy?
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So there's all these other issues which are still very much to play out,
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I would think. And that I suspect will a big story going forward.
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And also I've recently been at the Medicines Management Conference and obviously
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in the hospital sector there's a whole other range of issues there,
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some of which are quite related. Obviously with charting,
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giving, prescribing rights,
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workflow,
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the increasing specialization in that sector,
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we do get quite a few comments from readers around the significance of those.
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So yeah, I mean I think, I'm just trying to think what else.
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There's been a lot of comments on this year. Oh goodness,
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certainly been a lot on Chemist Warehouse and Sigma, but yeah,
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I think they're probably the main ones that leap out at me that have been
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ongoing issues.
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So I might ask you what you have been most proud of seeing across
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2024,
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so both for the Australian general of pharmacy as well as for
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pharmacists in the pharmacy world?
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Yep. Okay. Well, in the broad pharmacy world,
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I think I've already covered really what I'm most proud of.
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I think I really welcome the fact that
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pharmacists are now showing what a key role they do and always have played in
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the health system and how that can be expanded.
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I think that's something everyone in pharmacy should be really proud of. I mean,
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we recently ran our reader vote campaign
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on advanced practice pioneers and that as well as people
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you'd expect to be mentioned like Professor Lisa Nisson,
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people like that.
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There was a lot of other people I'd actually not heard of who were mentioned in
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there and you think, God, these people have done some really, really innovative,
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amazing things.
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And I think that's something that we often,
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I think that's something that probably gets lost in the 24/7 run of
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stories. We often hear the complaints and the negativity.
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We deal with a lot of stories where someone's being suspended for something or
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has happened or there's a fight over resources,
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the usual stories you get in every field. And
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I think it was an interesting thing to sit down and look at that
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and to see the people that people voted for and nominated for that.
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It was really inspiring to think that there's so many people out there who are
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just going, look, I'm not interested in the politics of things.
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I'm just going to get on and do what I think is important to do.
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That's something that I think
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having been in pharmacy or worked around the pharmacy space since about 2001,
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to see where it's come to now from there is it's incredible really.
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So I think that's something everyone in pharmacy should be really proud of
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in terms of AJP look, I think
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firstly, I hope that we're still meeting what our reader's needs are.
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I hope they are. I think they are. Please tell me if they're not.
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One thing we have tried to do and we're looking to do more in future,
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is to target people more directly. I mean,
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we've started that with our AJP Select Hospital and Credentialed
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Pharmacist e-newsletter.
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That was an area that we identified as
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not being all that well covered in the AJP Daily.
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Basically when you've got a limited range of stories,
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it is unfortunate,
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but you tend to sort of favour the ones that get the most clicks.
And I know
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that does sound like we're chasing clicks. It's not really,
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but it's just what happens.
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It's unfortunately the way of the world and there are lots of
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worthy stories that do get lost in the mix because you've got to fill five or
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six spaces and you might have 10 stories we often do.
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And so that was an area of pharmacy we identified as not being well serviced
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by anyone really including us.
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So we launched that newsletter as a fortnightly and made it an opt-in newsletter
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and it's now ballooned up.
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I think we've got about 3000 people reading it every fortnight now.
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It gets massive readership rates.
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It is been a real success and I'm really proud of the way that's grown and it's
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opened up whole other avenues of readership for us and also other
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avenues of commenters for us that we've met a lot of people who
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we probably wouldn't have dealt with very often before that came to pass.
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So I think that's something I'm very proud of with AJP and I think that's
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something we're looking to do hopefully more in the future.
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I think there's other areas that we could address people who are doing
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innovative things in the pharmacy business space or
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looking at it and areas like that.
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So I think there's lots of other areas we can look at. But yeah,
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that's something I'm definitely proud of for AJP and we're always looking to
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identify and meet what we think our readers need. So yeah.
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Thank you. When you think back on what you predicted for 2024,
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so when you think about the end of 2023,
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has the year turned out how you expected?
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No, I think most people are saying that about 2024. Actually,
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no, I don't think so. God,
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what did I predict? I did predict that. Well,
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I think I hoped there'd be a good agreement coming out of it and there was
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yes and no. I suppose I'm sorry to change my answer halfway through
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with most things. I mean, you just don't know what's going to happen,
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do you over 12 months?
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I don't know what's happening from week to week to be honest, Carlene. But no,
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I think some things have come to pass as I thought they would,
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but I honestly did think there would be more argie-bargie over the
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agreement and I did not think that pharmacy would get some of the
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outcomes it did get from that. I think I
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really did think it would be a lot tougher.
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I thought the relationship with the government was bad
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and that it wouldn't have come to pass as it did.
It's
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interesting the way it did come about. I mean, it kind of almost,
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I don't know if I should be saying this or not,
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but it seemed to me after a while it was kind of like the government were like,
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well, we need to just get this one done and out of the way.
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And I don't know,
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obviously the Guild had made a very good case and they got a good result out of
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it. I mean, I know there's still in that space,
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there's more to come with agreements and I suppose we'll talk about that later
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when we look forward to 2025. But yeah, I think that was probably,
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if I'm to think about anything, that's the thing I'm most surprised about.
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I really did think there'd be a lot more to-ing and fro-ing over that.
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It did seem to be,
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I'm sure it wasn't very easy to Anthony and his team,
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but looking from the outside,
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it did in the end come to a really good outcome and I think it seemed to be a
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lot smoother than I would've thought it would've been.
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Thank you.
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What are your thoughts about what pharmacists can anticipate in 2025?
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Well, firstly, I mean while we're talking about agreements,
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I mean I know there's two more agreements currently being negotiated or
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soon to come to fruition, maybe even before 2025, who knows?
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I know there's obviously the agreement with the wholesalers, which is
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separate now from the CPA and obviously the agreement
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being negotiated on professional pharmacy programs.
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So I think that's definitely something which will make a difference next year.
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I mean, obviously the fact that PSA obviously now has
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ownership's probably not the term, but responsibility I suppose,
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for administering those non CPA programs like NIP V and
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various others. I mean, it'll be interesting to see what comes from that.
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I think that's definitely something which will make a big impact on people going
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forward. Obviously when you think of,
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there's been lots of questions over the H-M-R-R-M-M-R program and its level of
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funding.
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So now that's removed from where it's been for the past few years and is
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under the auspices of PSA in this new soon to be
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negotiated agreement or currently being negotiated agreement.
It'll be
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interesting to see what comes to that next year.
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And that's definitely something that will be a huge impact. Think, I mean,
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obviously as I mentioned before too, Sigma and Chemist Warehouse,
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I think it will be interest really fascinating to see what plays out from that,
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what will be the ramifications because obviously it does seem in the community
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pharmacy space that we're seeing the development of
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two or three super banner groups. Is that a term? I don't know,
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can I coin that one? But where there's going to be these
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entities almost,
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and I think we'll probably see increasing fragmentation between those,
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some pharmacies moving into those big groups like the expanding Terry White
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Chemmart group and those groups that are part of the
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Sigma and Chemist warehouse camps.
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And then you sort of, I suppose,
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innovative smaller banners like Pharmacy 777 Group and Capital
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Chemist and people like that. And yeah,
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it'll be interesting to see how that landscape plays out going forward, I think.
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What else can we look forward to in 2025? Well,
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I think another thing it'll be interesting to see certainly will be the,
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as we get more and more results through from the expanded scope of practice
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trials in different states.
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And I have heard, I don't know how true this is,
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but I have heard in some cases there's been issues in recruiting
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people into those or pharmacies. I mean,
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hopefully people are on board and want to get involved, but yeah,
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we'll be fascinating to see how they come through.
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I know at Medicines Management there were a couple of posters that
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illustrated the results of some trials in South Australia and they seemed really
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positive looking at those. So yeah,
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I mean that'll be fascinating to see what comes from those because obviously
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that will inform then the next steps in terms of funding for those programs at a
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state level
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and possibly at a national level and whether other trials are performed.
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So I think they're probably the main things that are top of mind.
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I suppose the other thing, one thing that, it's interesting,
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it's an issue that we always think is really important,
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but the story never really clicked that well. But
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I think is it related issues, particularly IT safety? I think,
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I don't know. It's something that always freaks me out,
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but it doesn't seem to resonate very well with our readers,
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but I think it probably should more and more every year because there are so
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many growing security concerns and healthcare is the
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most highly targeted area,
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and I think that's definitely something people should be on top of more and more
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is, it's a bit of a downer,
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but I think we definitely need to be on top of that because all sorts of
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ramifications that can come from an IT breakdown.
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So I think probably something else I'd mention, but yeah,
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it's interesting people never really read those stories.
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Maybe we need to look at the headlines. I don't know.
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I guess I might ask you what you think or any advice you might have for
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pharmacists about how they can prepare for what's next to come and yeah,
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for 2025 as we close off another year.
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Well read AJP. We've got all the experts doing now.
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I think it was definitely lots to learn from the experts. We do run,
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probably not what I write, but look, I think really, I suppose, yeah,
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actually I was being facetious, but look, keep up to date with things.
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Keep reading the advice coming from everyone from the guild,
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the advice that comes from PSA from AdPha,
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which is something I haven't actually mentioned.
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And that's another big step which I should have mentioned before actually is the
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changing in nomenclature of the SHPA to AdPha,
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which is a big step. Sorry to step back,
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but I probably should have mentioned that earlier. It wasn't my notes.
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I don't know why I didn't mention it. But yeah,
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I mean think that's a huge step and that speaks again to the
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expansion of scope of practice and the opening up of all these sort of areas of
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pharmacy.
Also, it does tie into it how to prepare for 2025. There you go.
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Because obviously an ever expanding area is going to be
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that sort of middle ground I suppose if you want to call it that sits between
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the hospital pharmacy camp and the community pharmacy camp,
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these whole areas of people working in general practice,
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working in aged care people doing things like H Rs
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and all that sort of all those
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extra services and newer areas of practice for pharmacy.
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And obviously that's informed the move of SHPA
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into AdPha and the opening up also of their college where they're awarding
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post-graduate
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qualifications for expertise in particular specializations.
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So obviously that's something I think that's going to happen more and more.
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It's interesting because I think going forward I do get the sense,
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and a lot of people have told me this,
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on the one hand you are going to have all these increasing areas of
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specialization for pharmacists to move into,
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but on the other hand also,
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there's going to be more and more in the future people who are moving between
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all these different areas of practice who are going to be working
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in a hospital but also may do some community pharmacy work who are also working
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in aged care.
I think there's going to be,
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the flexibility is going to be there increasingly in the future.
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And I think probably from what people tell me, that's definitely something that
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younger pharmacists are increasingly aware of,
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and I think that's something that's going to be there in the future.
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You probably won't spend all your life in a community pharmacy or looking
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to go and buy a pharmacy. Less and less people are doing that,
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but more and more people are looking to around different areas of practice,
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and I think that's going to be something that everyone's going to have to get
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used to going forward and prepare for. And I think that's probably a good thing,
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really. I mean,
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perhaps not if you're an owner looking for staff who want to stay there, but no,
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I think it is going to be a good thing for pharmacists.
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I mean the options of work are going to
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increasingly expand and I think you just have to be versatile and
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flexible and interested in working in lots of different areas. I mean,
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I think that's the same for everyone.
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It's certainly the same for those of us in media these days as well. I mean,
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I think just be flexible and be aware of where the
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opportunities are.
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I think that's probably the key thing on an individual level that I'd end on.
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And as I said before, worry about your IT security.
384
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Thank you.
385
00:24:35.990 --> 00:24:39.620
And the only other question I have is to go back to the one about yes,
386
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just in case you had anything you wanted to add.
387
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What was that again? It.
388
00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:47.510
Was about the challenges that were seen in pharmacy across 2024.
389
00:24:49.010 --> 00:24:51.710
Yeah, look, I think I've pretty much covered it really. I mean,
390
00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.640
I think probably the big thing really was
391
00:24:57.860 --> 00:24:59.150
one thing I will say I've noticed,
392
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I think a lot of people have said this to me as well,
393
00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:05.120
and we've had quite a few comments and discussions about this with people.
394
00:25:05.570 --> 00:25:09.110
The mood within pharmacy did change around the time the agreement was signed.
395
00:25:09.110 --> 00:25:10.700
I think there was a lot of uncertainty,
396
00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:14.900
which has been largely eased by that. I mean, look,
397
00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:16.400
we still got a lot of comments from readers.
398
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.260
I was looking at some overnight where people were,
399
00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.040
the sectors kind of on its last legs and it's fine.
400
00:25:22.040 --> 00:25:23.300
People always say things like that,
401
00:25:26.390 --> 00:25:30.560
but I think the mood definitely picked up and I know the UTS barometer
402
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:33.380
picked that up as well. I think
403
00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:37.220
it gave people some renewed certainty.
404
00:25:38.930 --> 00:25:43.520
So I think that did answer some of the challenges.
I think probably a lot of the
405
00:25:43.580 --> 00:25:46.880
challenges are what I just spoke about before, really in terms of flexibility,
406
00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:52.190
it's always difficult in a workforce, isn't it?
407
00:25:52.190 --> 00:25:53.870
And if I can put my media hat on here,
408
00:25:55.250 --> 00:26:00.020
I was probably in the early to middle part of my career when
409
00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:05.360
digital media started happening and you get training in
410
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:09.860
one area, which was print journalism or broadcast journalism.
411
00:26:09.890 --> 00:26:14.600
When I was at uni and starting my career,
412
00:26:14.810 --> 00:26:16.850
if you started in print, you were writing for print,
413
00:26:17.150 --> 00:26:19.880
it was a pretty structured path of what you did and where you went.
414
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.540
And then all of a sudden this huge great bloody disruptor got thrown into the
415
00:26:23.540 --> 00:26:26.750
middle of it and everyone was doing a bit of everything after that.
416
00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:30.320
You're writing for a magazine, but you're also writing for a newsletter.
417
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.150
You spend all your day doing newsletter stories,
418
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:35.600
then you have to find time to do a longer piece for the magazine.
Then you're
419
00:26:35.600 --> 00:26:36.500
doing social media,
420
00:26:36.500 --> 00:26:40.700
then you're doing these days podcasts or videos or whatever
421
00:26:44.030 --> 00:26:45.720
it is been hugely disrupted. And
422
00:26:48.300 --> 00:26:51.600
how do people respond to disruption? Some people get despondent,
423
00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:53.700
some people leave, some people embrace it,
424
00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:57.540
others just batten down the hatches and push through.
425
00:26:57.810 --> 00:27:02.790
And I think pharmacy has had that as well, of course. And I think in particular,
426
00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:04.860
it's probably hit a little bit later than it did with media,
427
00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:09.630
but I think we are sort of still at the end. No,
428
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:11.040
the end's not the right term is it?
429
00:27:11.250 --> 00:27:14.880
We're still in the middle of that process now where things are changing.
430
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.750
There's been disruptors and there are going to be more and more disruptors in
431
00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:23.190
health. And I think that that has created that sense of, like I said before,
432
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whereas people, once I'm a hospital pharmacist, I'm a community pharmacist,
433
00:27:27.870 --> 00:27:32.790
I'm now going to buy a pharmacy.
There was those areas where people
434
00:27:32.790 --> 00:27:36.690
went into and that is being thrown around
435
00:27:37.830 --> 00:27:38.910
and thrown up in the air. And
436
00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:45.240
you'll get some people who have embraced the flexibility of being able to travel
437
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.450
and be locums or do some work in a community pharmacy,
438
00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.940
but also do a couple of days wherever.
439
00:27:51.600 --> 00:27:55.230
People who want to work in aged care or are doing RS who want to work
440
00:27:55.290 --> 00:27:57.540
independently and be contracted.
441
00:27:59.340 --> 00:28:00.990
That is still working itself out.
442
00:28:01.110 --> 00:28:03.840
Obviously you've got factors within pharmacy that fight against that.
443
00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:09.180
I think you've got the general move of society and of the health system
444
00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:14.100
will end up in a more flexible workforce than it is now.
445
00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:18.570
And I suppose that's just how people respond to that in pharmacy.
446
00:28:18.570 --> 00:28:23.310
That's even more magnified, I suppose,
447
00:28:23.310 --> 00:28:25.680
by the increasing feminization of the workforce. I mean,
448
00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:30.900
you yourself have young children and you have to had to deal with the
449
00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:31.920
implications of
450
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:38.130
pregnancy and maternity leave and whatnot.
And obviously
451
00:28:38.280 --> 00:28:41.940
in a workforce, what is it now, 61% female. I mean,
452
00:28:43.320 --> 00:28:47.640
that's obviously a huge factor. And I suppose what I'm saying,
453
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.560
the challenge there is the whole of pharmacy needs to,
454
00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:53.400
how does it approach this? I mean, I think there's been a kind of,
455
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.010
I sense some reluctance to face some of the implications of that.
456
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.210
And I think that will definitely play out over the next few years.
457
00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:05.820
We already have workforce challenges in this sector,
458
00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:10.980
and I think unless the implications of
459
00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:13.560
the changing nature of work,
460
00:29:13.800 --> 00:29:18.780
the increasing feminization of pharmacy and the increasingly
461
00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:20.610
unstructured nature of, I suppose,
462
00:29:20.610 --> 00:29:25.410
pharmacists careers in terms of being able to move around
463
00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:28.200
and probably needing to move around more than they ever did in the past,
464
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.830
I think those things are yet to play out. And we're in the early days of that.
465
00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:33.750
So I think that's going to be a challenge for a lot of people going forward.
I
466
00:29:33.750 --> 00:29:34.110
mean,
467
00:29:34.110 --> 00:29:37.410
obviously a lot of young pharmacists who come into this space won't know any
468
00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:40.320
different, will be like, great, this is fantastic. I can do a bit of this.
469
00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:41.530
I can do a bit of that, be brilliant.
470
00:29:41.530 --> 00:29:45.250
But if you're a bit older or sort of partway through your career,
471
00:29:45.250 --> 00:29:48.370
sometimes these things can be a massive issue for you, can't they?
472
00:29:48.370 --> 00:29:53.020
So I think that would be one of the biggest challenges I think pharmacy needs to
473
00:29:53.020 --> 00:29:57.850
face. And I think there has been quite a lot of
474
00:29:58.780 --> 00:30:03.520
heads in sand over that issue or those issues. It's not one issue is it?
475
00:30:03.850 --> 00:30:06.340
But I think, yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be looked at.
476
00:30:08.080 --> 00:30:10.990
Wow, look at you. That was a very big picture. Loved it.
477
00:30:10.990 --> 00:30:13.270
I haven't had that response. Thank you. Very big picture.
478
00:30:14.300 --> 00:30:15.950
Well, do you know something, Carlene? Funnily enough,
479
00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:17.890
when I was thinking about this the other day,
480
00:30:17.890 --> 00:30:22.450
that was actually one of the first notes I wrote down that was talking about
481
00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:25.600
that, and I completely forgot about it until then. I mean, it is a big issue.
482
00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:28.690
I sort of was just sticking to issues that people had talked about,
483
00:30:28.690 --> 00:30:31.150
but when I was thinking about it,
484
00:30:31.150 --> 00:30:35.290
that is kind of a much bigger issue than a lot of the nitty gritty stuff really.
485
00:30:35.290 --> 00:30:36.123
I mean,
486
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:39.520
it iss a massive issue and it's going to be a massive issue going forward.
487
00:30:39.910 --> 00:30:43.780
And it's so weird, isn't it? I mean, you think, again,
488
00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:48.640
a profession that's now heavily majority female and increasingly with
489
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:49.930
females in senior roles,
490
00:30:49.930 --> 00:30:54.880
and it still doesn't seem to have generated much more talk.
491
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.340
It's in a strange, really, I don't know.
492
00:31:00.550 --> 00:31:04.630
Yes, it is, but I am still putting a comma there. I'm still
493
00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:09.940
advocacy and support and opening people's minds. But you're right,
494
00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:11.080
there's a lot less talk.
495
00:31:11.080 --> 00:31:14.500
And when people get confronted with things that they haven't thought about,
496
00:31:15.070 --> 00:31:19.240
they can become defensive or it's definitely not an area of comfort.
497
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:20.650
So they definitely retreat.
498
00:31:21.250 --> 00:31:25.900
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So I think that one is, I'm pleased.
499
00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:26.920
I did think about that one. In the end,
500
00:31:27.010 --> 00:31:31.750
it is a big issue and I think it is important to talk about those bigger picture
501
00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:32.583
sort of things.
502
00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:39.370
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503
00:31:39.610 --> 00:31:42.910
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504
00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:48.040
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505
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506
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