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Welcome to the AJP podcast,
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a podcast for pharmacists by pharmacists where we discuss current
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events, relevant topics, and emerging issues. I'm your host, Carlene McMaugh,
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and together with the AJP,
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I'm bringing you the opinions and expertise of different pharmacists to discuss
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their views and insights on topics relevant to pharmacists.
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Please like and rate each episode and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss
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an episode.
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Is it okay to introduce yourself first, please?
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Hi Carlene. My name's Brooke Shelley.
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I'm a pharmacist in rural Victoria in Mildura,
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and I wear lots of hats. One,
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the most predominant one is as a mum of three young kids and a wife,
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and I'm a pharmacist in lots of different areas,
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so GP pharmacist is probably my most common role these days.
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The consultant pharmacist doing HMRs and RMRs and I do a lot of work in
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pharmacy governance these days. So thank you for having me today.
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Thank you for sharing your time.
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I thought I'd ask you some questions to celebrate International Women's Day.
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There are a lot of amazing women doing work in pharmacy,
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and thank you for spending your time to share some of your insights and some of
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your experiences as being one of the leaders of the females in pharmacy.
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So can I please ask you,
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have you ever felt that being a woman has impacted your career progression
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positively or negatively?
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Yeah,
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I mean there's a lot of positives about being a female in
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pharmacy in terms of your ability to connect with half
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of the population,
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particularly those with regards to being mums.
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I definitely think becoming a mother has changed the way I
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pharmacy and I think I'm much better for it.
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So definitely being a woman in that regard is a positive in pharmacy,
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obviously. Yeah, there's negatives, there's lots of 'em,
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unfortunately still in 2025, but
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the biggest one I would say is that if all was
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equal,
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then I would be entering back into my
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career at 37 on an equal footing to the men at
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37.
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And so I can really see now when I'm applying for various
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governance positions or whatever the case might be,
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in terms of what I've been able to put into my career over the last 10 years,
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comparative to men of my age,
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like being a woman in leadership and in pharmacy leadership.
Yeah,
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you absolutely start on a lower footing, I suppose.
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Certainly not an even one anyway. But yeah,
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I probably think that positively from spending a
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significant chunk of my time as a mum,
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I've had to think outside the box in terms of how I can be in pharmacy and be a
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mum, and that made me work my way into different areas.
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So that's why I ended up, I suppose,
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in consultant pharmacy because of its flexibility and that led me to GP
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pharmacy, and those kinds of roles are typically never full time,
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especially at the start. So I think I've been lucky in that regard,
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and that's probably because I was a mum. So yeah,
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positives and negatives Carlene.
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Thank you.
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Can you share a challenge that you've experienced as a female in the workplace
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and how you overcame it?
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Yeah, this one was a fair while ago,
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but it really does stand out to me.
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I remember being in the boardroom with obviously more men than women as
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it typically is,
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and I was having a relatively robust discussion with another
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male colleague, and we were arguing our point in very similar ways.
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And the more senior male in the room made commentary around
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the discussion from my perspective being emotional and the discussion from the
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male's perspective being passionate. And
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I think a bit of a turning point for me is me recognising that
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it is different to be a woman in potentially a position
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of power as an example.
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And you do have to choose your words carefully,
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and you do have to consider your delivery.
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And I wish we didn't have to because certainly it feels like men don't have to.
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So I think at that time there were other women in
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the room too at that time.
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And I think now looking back,
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because I didn't do anything about it at that time,
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quite young and perhaps just not
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recognising, but now,
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absolutely I would've said something and I feel like if I had that time again,
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I would've loved to have called it out.
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And now if I ever do see it with any woman,
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I feel like I have the confidence now to call it out, and I hope more women do.
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Yeah, definitely.
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That was a bit of a turning point in my experience with men in
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workplaces. Absolutely.
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Thank you for sharing.
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Have you had a female mentor in pharmacy and how did she influence your career?
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Yeah, I've had lots of mentors over the journey,
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and I probably do gravitate more to women in that
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respect.
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I think predominantly because you expect that women have
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seen the same challenges or more similar challenges to you.
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So I think I've been so lucky to have
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come across and been mentored by Debbie Rigby, and I mean,
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she's an incredible female in this profession,
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and she's taught me so much about leaning in and
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not waiting for the perfect moment to jump at things.
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She certainly, she doesn't like that term work-life balance,
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and she told me that multiple times.
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The whole concept really indicates that there's a right answer to it
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and there isn't work-life balance looks different to every woman and
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frankly to every man.
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So what you might think is acceptable might be completely different to me.
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So yeah,
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Debbie's been a great mentor and I think she's certainly
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been a leader and a female leader during a time that was far more
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challenging than it is now.
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And I certainly still feel in 2025 that it's not easy. So she,
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she's cracked the glass ceiling and you can see Fei's being able to smash
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through it,
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and I think that's pretty incredible in pharmacy leadership and we have a lot to
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thank women like Debbie Rigby for sort of paving the way.
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Thank you.
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Who is a female figure inside or outside pharmacy that inspires you?
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A good couple. I mean,
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I really love listening to some of the
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quotes and have read the books of Cheryl Sandberg,
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the CEO of Facebook or first CEO of Facebook.
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Her book Lean In is really great,
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and I really do suggest that women that are interested in trying to figure
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out this whole working mum life thing have a good read.
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But she, if you go back to the mentorship question,
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she sort of talks about the fact that we say, if you get a good mentor,
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you'll excel.
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But I think what she says is excel and you'll get a
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good mentor because now I suppose I'm in a phase in
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my career where I would be considered a mentor to some people
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in my life,
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and I think they're already great in and of themselves,
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and I feel so privileged to be in their world,
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but I think that's because, yeah,
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you really do have to put the work in before someone's willing to put the work
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into you.
So yeah, Cheryl Sandberg, she's,
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she's pretty great. Fei is another one,
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and I think we're pretty privileged to know that she's going to be speaking on
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this podcast as well.
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I distinctly remember her first presidential address at PSA 23,
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and anyone that was in that room, I'd be surprised if they've forgotten it.
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We had a female in her thirties in a minority
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group, representation matters. And at that point in my career,
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it mattered to me to see a young woman standing up in front of
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our profession. And
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although I don't have the challenges that she might've
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faced and speaks to sometimes with regards to her ethnicity,
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I feel like I certainly fit within a minority,
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particularly in pharmacy leadership in my rurality.
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And so it is just nice to see people that might not fit the normal mould,
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be there and are smashing it. So to me it was like, oh,
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maybe I can or could or should do more.
Maybe it's time for me to jump
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in. And so yeah,
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Fei's pretty incredible in that regard for me.
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And I would say lastly,
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if you're talking about people that inspire me,
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it wasn't until I became a mother that I realised that every working mother
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inspires me. It really doesn't matter what you do if you are doing that juggle,
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it's bloody hard. So yeah,
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it definitely wasn't until I became a mum that I recognised that
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when I was overseeing a team of 50/50,
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significant number of those were women early in my career.
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And then I went into an operational role where there was hundreds of people
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underneath me, and most of them were women.
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And I definitely approached my interactions with them.
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That work was the most important thing because work was the most important thing
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to me at the time. And yeah, now that I've got kids,
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it completely changes how I interact with people.
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And you have to recognise that at any one time they are thinking about
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work and their family at all times. It doesn't matter what it is,
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it never escapes you rightly or wrongly.
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It is who you are. Yeah, yeah,
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working women absolutely inspire me every day.
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Thank you. You have had a great career with recognised impact.
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So what barriers do you still experience as a woman in pharmacy despite this?
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I think it's, it's not so much a woman in pharmacy,
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but it is just a woman that is the barrier. I mean,
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at the end of the day,
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we're never going to change the fact that say in my marriage that
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I'm the one with the womb, right? We're never going to change that.
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So when we talk about equality,
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you're never going to get there. It's equity, isn't it?
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It's not the whole make sure there's more
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seats at the table for women,
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it's redesign the table so that we can all sit there
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in the comfort of our own skills and abilities
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and be able to do all of the things that we want to do.
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I dunno that it's certainly not a pharmacy centric problem
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being a leader as a female. I mean, one day, hopefully Carlene,
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we say there are leaders, not female leaders, but yeah,
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we're a long way off it and looking pharmacy,
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I think PSA have done a great job.
If you look at our board
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representation and the demographics there, certainly on the Victorian board,
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there are actually a significant number of women over and above the number of
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men. So perhaps we are in the right direction, but I mean,
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should it be equal? Maybe not. I mean, there's a lot more women in pharmacy,
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so maybe it should be more close to representing who we are as a profession.
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So yeah, I don't necessarily think the goal should be 50/50.
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It should probably just be reflective of representing who your members are,
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and that should be across the board in leadership.
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The world as it stands,
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should be 50% of our countries and companies led by
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women and 50% of our households are led by men.
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That is the dream. But yeah, like I said,
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we're never going to change the fact that women have the wombs.
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So it's about figuring out how we can do that
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whilst not changing what we are.
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So how do you balance work, family,
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personal life as a pharmacist? How do you balance work, family,
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and personal life as a pharmacist?
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That would indicate that I actually balance it. Carlene,
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I'm not sure really. I think
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I do do a lot of early mornings. I get up before the world rises.
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By the world, I mean my world in my children,
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my husband gets up not a whole lot later than me,
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and he exercises in that time and I typically work.
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So it's one of those things that if you think
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about why there are more women in pharmacy than
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men,
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is it because it is a relatively flexible role?
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Is that why is it chicken and egg? I'm really not sure in the sense that
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we often purport pharmacy to be quite a female friendly career
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path,
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and I think that really is mostly to do with the fact that 70% of our
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registered pharmacists work in community pharmacy and lots of community
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pharmacies are open seven days a week and nights.
And so
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then that becomes a flexible way to work. And really,
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it actually pains me to consider the fact that women have to consistently
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be the ones who are the flexible ones.
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So I've just spent 11 years being flexible carleen,
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and it's my youngest one has just started school this year.
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And yeah,
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I think the expectation is that I'll continue to be flexible in
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my work and because I can be right,
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and the challenge is that that is actually not my
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husband's issue.
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He is in an industry that almost forces that
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on him in the sense that it is not flexible.
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So I think it's not a pharmacy thing, it's not a women thing.
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It's actually a societal thing that male dominated
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professions or areas that men typically go into
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need to be more flexible.
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We need to allow men to do more of the caregiving role.
So
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it's not just the fallback position because I will tell you right
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now, my husband would have loved to have gone part-time and me go part-time,
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and we do that equally.
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He's a very hands-on father and he does everything in his power to make his work
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as flexible within its realm.
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I suppose to try not to miss sporting events and try not to miss times
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where he can go to school. But it's definitely easier for me,
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realistically in my role, it is easier for me to be flexible,
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and I think that is what's holding women back is the fact that you go, oh,
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well, he can't do it. He can't do it. He might want to do it,
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but he can't do it. So it is not a pharmacy issue, it's not a women issue,
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it's a societal issue.
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Thank you.
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Can you discuss how being a female pharmacist has impacted on your approach to
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patient care and the unique perspectives you bring to the role and your
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leadership roles?
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Yeah,
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I definitely remember the very first time after I'd had children
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that a woman spoke to me about formula feeding,
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and it was just such a different conversation having breastfed a
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child, and it didn't start with, oh, do you want lactose free?
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Do you want this, that, and the other. It started with, how are you going?
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How are you going? She hasn't rocked up to the formula section of the pharmacy
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because that was an easy pathway for her. That's not what's happened.
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She's rocked up because potentially what she's wanted to do hasn't happened
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or because she's had to make a choice to be flexible. Again,
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there's so many layers to why women end up in the aisle of a formula
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section of a pharmacy, and frankly,
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some women rock up because that's where they want to be. It is what it is.
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But my approach was completely different as a mother as a
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pharmacist than what it was just as a pharmacist.
And I think we
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probably don't utilise that intrinsic
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life education as well as we should.
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So definitely being a woman does change your perspective and it changes your
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perspective about health. As you get a bit older,
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the discussions around perimenopause,
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all of those sorts of things change and you just approach things in a completely
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different manner.
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But I think in terms of being a
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leader and a female,
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I think perhaps we do because we have to think about family and it
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perhaps is more at the forefront of our minds.
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Sometimes we make different or have different
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observations, and so when you're in governance and you're having a discussion,
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I do find that particularly on boards where they are male dominated,
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I do find my voice is quite different and not intentionally,
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it just seemingly is. Again,
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that might also come down to my age as well,
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because typically women that are in governance positions and leadership
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positions are a bit older,
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and so they've got a different level of experience,
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but I'm relatively new in the scheme of all of that. So yeah,
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do tend to have different perspectives and I hope they're welcomed.
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What advice would you give to young female pharmacists who are struggling with
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the term but also the aspiration of work-life balance?
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I think that life rarely hands you perfection.
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It rarely hands you the perfect moment,
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and I think you just have to step into the mess and make things happen.
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All of the best things happen when you least expect them.
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And if you are waiting for your life to be perfect before you
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jump in to do something, it will never happen. As a mother.
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You've just got to do it when it feels perhaps mostly right.
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And I think I've really learned that it is
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much better to say yes and then figure out the details later because there
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are so many times where I think women let really great opportunities pass them
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by because the stars haven't aligned.
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Exactly right.
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So I think my advice to particularly younger women in the
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workplace when they're sort of thinking about having children and how it'll
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affect their career and all that sort of stuff,
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you're quite literally never going to get it right all of the time.
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So just do what feels right for the most part and figure it out
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as you go along.
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Do you think that workplaces are doing enough to support women in pharmacy,
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especially mothers?
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I think they've unfortunately a lot of conversation around women feeling
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torn when their children are unwell. As an example,
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I think pharmacy is a tricky one because if the pharmacist is not there,
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the business closes, and that might not be such a big challenge metropolitan-ly,
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but it is hugely problematic rurally,
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there are a lot of single pharmacist pharmacies, rurally,
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and it's probably one of the major reasons why I haven't remained in community
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pharmacy because when I moved home to Mildura,
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some of the pharmacies and one of the pharmacies I was working in was a single
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pharmacist pharmacy,
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and just that pressure to always be there and to have to
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put the business first.
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I like the concept of the glass balls.
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So it's like you're always juggling balls,
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and some of them will bounce if you drop them,
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but some of them are glass and they'll smash,
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and it's really hard if your child is unwell and you're
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the only pharmacist in the pharmacy, which one is the glass ball?
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Realistically, especially in rural areas, you are closing a pharmacy,
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you are closing a health service for hundreds of people potentially
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to go and pick up your child. Who is the centre of your universe?
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Which one is the glass ball? So I think, no,
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we are not doing enough. I don't know what the solution is,
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particularly in pharmacy in rural areas, but for me,
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the solution has been to go into a different era of pharmacy and practise in a
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different way. So I suppose the answer is no,
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we're not doing enough for women in pharmacy, particularly mothers,
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and I mean,
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I'm disgusted by some of the commentary that you see online about mothers
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not being able to pull up a stool when they're dispensing in a community
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pharmacy when they're pregnant.
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Those should be the absolute rights for women to be safe.
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It's a right for anyone to be safe in their workplace and to
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have to be putting a pregnancy at risk because
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an owner is not happy for you to have a stool dispensing. Yeah,
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we're a long way from where we need to be in 2025 if that's still commentary
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online. So single answer, no,
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I don't think we're doing enough or do I know what all the solutions are?
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I don't. But yeah, I think
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the solution for now is to keep the commentary open and listen to women and
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especially listen to mothers and find out what they need. Because yeah,
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the answer's going to be different for all of them. Yeah,
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equity not equality,
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it's going to be different for all Women don't expect that you've got it right
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just because you've got it right the last time.
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Very true.
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How can we encourage more women to take on leadership roles in healthcare and
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pharmacy?
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Look,
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I think Covid may have helped that in a way because
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more leadership discussions do happen online in
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terms of your roles and responsibilities within leadership.
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A lot of it is meetings.
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You're having a lot of meetings and meetings that mean,
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say from Mildura, that mean that I need to be in Melbourne.
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That really does change your appetite for leadership when
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you're needing to be away from your family all of the time.
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So I do think we have moved in the right direction.
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I don't think we did it intentionally, but it has happened, which is great.
378
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That's one of the good things that has come out of Covid is flexibility.
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So yeah,
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I certainly think that there are ways to
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improve the numbers of women in leadership,
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and I'll go back to saying representation matters.
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So if your board doesn't represent who you are representing,
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have a good hard look at your board,
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and the people on the board need to actively go and
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find the women and tap them on the shoulder and say, Hey,
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you can do this and I'll support you to do this. So often women,
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unfortunately,
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rightly or wrongly wait to be asked rather than ask themselves,
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and I think that's just millennia of not thinking that they're
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fit for purpose for these kinds of roles,
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but we absolutely need more women at the top.
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We absolutely need more women at the top so that younger women,
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girls can see that that's a role for them. So yeah,
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I think people that are in those positions have
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a big role to play in ensuring that they lift others up.
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What policies or changes would you like to see to better support women in the
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field?
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00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:49.820
I think that goes back to not the
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field, not pharmacy, not women. As a society,
401
00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:58.850
we need to do better and ensuring that men can do the caregiving
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roles equally to women so that this is just not a conversation anymore.
403
00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:07.730
It would just be lovely if we didn't need to have International Women's Day.
404
00:26:08.360 --> 00:26:13.070
We didn't need to have to have conversations around why we need
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00:26:13.070 --> 00:26:14.270
International Women's Day.
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It is actually one of my favourite things to do on International Women's Day is
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to rebut the 'when is international men's day?' commentary,
408
00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:25.730
but it's important that we have these conversations.
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It's important that we keep talking and keep
410
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calling out the fact that we are not there yet,
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because there are women in their seventies and eighties that have really fought
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the good fight, and they obviously see that things are improving,
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but I'm it. I'm living it and breathing it right now, and we are not there yet.
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So taking the time like you and I are right now to talk about it,
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I think that's the role that we play is just to keep the conversation going.
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What steps do you think we made to better achieve equality and equity in the
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profession?
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I think, like I said,
419
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I just don't think this is profession specific,
420
00:27:14.070 --> 00:27:18.780
but perhaps we go back to the fact that making
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sure that the workplace is fit for a woman
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in a mothering role, as an example, as it is for a man.
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So if you employ someone,
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they need to be able to have the flexibility to take their personal
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leave and not have to justify it.
426
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So I don't know what we need to change there in terms of
427
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legislation because the legislation's there.
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So it's really about changing the attitudes because there's a lot of
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00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:57.060
undercurrent around us, I suppose,
430
00:27:57.060 --> 00:28:00.090
using the legislation that's there to keep us safe.
431
00:28:00.990 --> 00:28:05.850
So if something's needed to be written down on paper
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and approved by a whole heap of important people in parliament,
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then maybe we might need to abide by it.
434
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And I think that the challenge is that whilst there might be legislation to
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protect us on the ground,
436
00:28:19.110 --> 00:28:22.500
adoption of that perhaps has a long way to go.
437
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:28.170
What keeps you motivated as a female pharmacist in your profession?
438
00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:32.790
Oh, well, I love pharmacy. I mean, pharmacy is a great profession.
439
00:28:32.790 --> 00:28:35.190
It's a great profession for women and men.
440
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:39.960
I think we have a great role to play
441
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:44.190
in keeping Australia healthy, and I think
442
00:28:46.560 --> 00:28:49.530
the profession is maturing, and
443
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we are at just such an exciting time where the writing's on the wall for us to
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00:28:56.190 --> 00:28:59.640
do more and not more for less.
445
00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:02.910
I think we're really starting to be valued for what we can bring,
446
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.180
and I think that's only just beginning.
447
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.570
And so when I think about the career that's yet to come,
448
00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:11.550
I am so excited for it.
449
00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:16.680
I just cannot wait to see what pharmacy looks like in five years,
450
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.400
10 years,
451
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:22.380
but I really can't wait to listen back to some of these podcasts and things that
452
00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:25.800
I've done earlier in my career and go, yeah, Brooke, go girlfriend.
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00:29:26.010 --> 00:29:28.200
You were saying all of that, and look where we've got to.
454
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So that keeps me motivated because I know we've got
455
00:29:33.030 --> 00:29:37.080
so much more to give. I know I've got so much more to give,
456
00:29:38.040 --> 00:29:39.210
and absolutely.
457
00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:43.630
One of the other things that motivates me is that the cool things I'm doing,
458
00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:47.560
my kids think it's cool being on a podcast. That's cool.
459
00:29:48.130 --> 00:29:53.110
So of course that motivates me. I love to be a role model for my children,
460
00:29:53.140 --> 00:29:57.760
and I love that they're proud of their mum. So yeah, that motivates me for sure.
461
00:30:00.130 --> 00:30:02.410
And just in line with what you just mentioned,
462
00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:05.860
what are your hopes for the future of the pharmacy profession,
463
00:30:05.890 --> 00:30:06.880
especially for women?
464
00:30:08.470 --> 00:30:13.330
Yeah, I just hope that every pharmacist reaches their potential.
465
00:30:13.690 --> 00:30:18.220
I hope that there is no pharmacist, male or female, but especially women,
466
00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:23.170
that there is no female pharmacist that is not meeting their
467
00:30:23.170 --> 00:30:24.003
potential,
468
00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:28.420
not getting out what they want from the profession.
469
00:30:28.990 --> 00:30:32.740
We all study so hard, we all go into it. I hope for the right reasons,
470
00:30:32.740 --> 00:30:37.330
and so I hope that there's not barriers in place in the
471
00:30:37.330 --> 00:30:42.070
future for people to just enjoy being in pharmacy and
472
00:30:42.520 --> 00:30:46.480
do it well. So that's my hope for the profession, that we do it well,
473
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.050
that we keep contributing to a healthier Australia.
474
00:30:52.330 --> 00:30:55.840
To the last question, you've almost made it look at that.
475
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.320
Yay. That's pretty good. That's pretty good for me.
476
00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:06.640
If you could change one thing for women in pharmacy, what would it be?
477
00:31:09.580 --> 00:31:12.730
Oh, geez, Carlene. I don't know. Like I said,
478
00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:17.290
I really struggle to see, when I talk to this,
479
00:31:17.290 --> 00:31:22.120
I really struggle to see that there really is pharmacy specific
480
00:31:22.120 --> 00:31:22.870
challenges.
481
00:31:22.870 --> 00:31:27.640
I think the one thing that I want to change for women is that they don't
482
00:31:27.910 --> 00:31:30.910
feel like they have to make an all or nothing choice.
483
00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:36.700
I really hope in the future women can say yes
484
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:40.300
to opportunities as quickly as men do.
485
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.760
They don't have to think as hard.
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That's the one change I want to see for women is that they can
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jump at opportunities that are afforded to them because of all the great,
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wonderful things that they're doing that they can just say yes if they want to.
489
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That's what I want to say.
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Is there anything that you'd like to share that I haven't asked you?
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I don't think so. I think we've done a good job.
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Thank you.
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We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the AJP podcast.
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00:32:13.390 --> 00:32:16.750
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00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.850
please visit the AJP website forum at ajp.com.au and join the
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00:32:21.850 --> 00:32:22.683
conversation.
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00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:26.320
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00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:31.120
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